Never Before!

I am excited to do something new with you. After 17 years, I’m doing my first interview.

I look at people like Dave Stachowiak on the Coaching for Leaders podcast. I see what it takes to create a great interview week after week, and I think, “Man, oh, man, that looks like a lot of work!”

But this interview was easy. It was irresistible, really.

Let me begin the story in the present day.

These days, it sometimes happens that when people hear I’m an executive coach, the conversation goes like this:

Me: “I’m an executive coach.”

Them: “Oh! Who do you coach?”

Me: “Corporate executives.”

Them: “What do you coach them on?”

I go right into Sorting and Labeling mode, and say, “I usually coach on one of three things. One – being more executive. ‘The Look & Sound of Leadership.’ Two – helping disruptive executives be a little less disruptive. Three – helping women rise. Helping women get their voices heard.”

Sometimes people are curious about disruptive executives. But sometimes they’re curious that an old white guy is helping women rise. That’s when I talk about Lois Frankel. Dr. Lois Frankel.

Dr. Lois Frankel

Lois and I are the same age, within months of each other. When we first met, thirty years ago, I was ending a twenty-year career as an actor in Hollywood and beginning a career as a corporate presentation skills trainer. Lois was twenty-years into a career in corporate HR when she left the corporate world because she wanted to make an impact working one-on-one with people.

Lois had a vision about professional coaching. She didn’t like that corporations saw coaching as the last thread a company would offer their executives before cutting them off. Lois wanted coaching to be a perk so high-performers could be even better.

So – while she was publishing a book every few years – she recruited a group of coaches and created Corporate Coaching International. And one of the coaches she recruited was me.

Everyone had a PhD, except me. I had a Bachelor of Fine Arts. Everyone else had worked in the corporate setting. I was just an ex-actor. But Lois valued that difference in me.

So, Lois taught me how to coach.

And because Lois is a feminist, I learned how to coach women’s issues.

Then, in 2004, one of Lois’s many books became a sensation. It was called Nice Girls Don’t Get the Corner Office. It was on everyone’s bookshelf. Lois’s life changed overnight. And so did all of ours, because suddenly Corporate Coaching International was catching a lot of reflected light off Lois’s star.

Well, the star that is Nice Girls has never gone out. A couple weeks ago, the third edition just got published. Lois and I got on a call to talk about it. We talked for about 50 minutes. It was extremely pleasurable because Lois and I have been talking about this stuff forever.

We started off by talking about how issues for women look the same or different to her, and she had quite a bit to say. Then I asked her to do what she and I have been doing for years: I asked her to coach me on two women clients.

And she did. A woman named Grace and a woman named Nicole.

Below is a transcript of our conversation about Grace. It has many tips and tools in it. The entire unedited conversation has dozens more. You can hear it here.

But for now, here’s me talking with Lois about a client of mine named Grace.

Tom: So let me tell you about a woman named Grace.

So, Grace. She’s a nice girl. I have a feeling that it’s old in her life. She is now at a senior level in a financial organization, and she’s clearly super smart. I love being with her during our coaching conversations.

Lois: Who doesn’t like being with a nice girl?

Tom: Well, yes! Partly because one of the things that I’m on her about is, for example, she’ll apologize if she wants to ask me a question. Or she’ll ask permission to ask me a question. It’s like — you know what I mean? It’s stuff like that.

So, one of the things that I wonder – and by the way, she has trouble in big meetings. It sounds like she runs her team great, but when she’s in like, her boss’s meeting and she’s with her peers, that she has trouble speaking up. And I just wonder, on that one issue, how you might coach her. What would you say to her?

Lois: Well, Tom, you know you and I often approach these coaching situations a little bit differently, and I’ve learned a lot from you, and I think you’ve learned a little bit from me.

Tom: I have, indeed.

Lois: And so, what went through my head when you described her was, first of all, were there any cultural issues at play here?

Tom: No.

Lois: So, it’s not as if she’s anything other than a Caucasian woman.

Tom: True. Correct.

Lois: Because sometimes, when there’s cultural issues, they come into play, as we both know, having done so much work in Asia.

The second question that came to mind for me was when you said she does well with her team, it’s in these meetings with her peers and her management that she seems to feel as if she needs to hold back. I would want to know what those people represent to her.

Because I can remember coaching a woman that was very similar to how you described, and she was great with her team. Her team loved her. When she got to management meetings – and she happened to be the executive director of a nonprofit.

Tom: Oh, huh.

Lois: And so, for her, her board was her executive team, right?

Tom: Yeah.

Lois: She became tongue tied. She couldn’t talk at all with these people.

Tom: Wow.

Lois: And otherwise, she was articulate. She represented her nonprofit beautifully. It was like, I thought there’s something old here. And you know that this is where you and I differ, because I want to know what’s the old that’s getting in the way of today.

So, I would want to ask Grace, “Where in your life, or from whom, did you get a message that it wasn’t okay to speak up? Especially to authority. Or even to people like maybe like your siblings or your, you know, older siblings?” Things like that, because they could be peers as well. Or, are they mostly – because you said it’s financial services, so it tells me it’s a lot of men.

Tom: Yes, I think it is a lot of men

Lois: So that’s the place I would start with her.

And then I would move into more of my ‘Tom’ behaviors. Which is, as you often say, well, I don’t know if you still say it anymore, but I’ve heard you say, when we used to talk about clients together, “I’m not as concerned about where it came from as I just want to change the behavior.”

Tom: [Laughs in agreement]

Lois: And we both want to change the behavior. So, I think from that point, you do have to give her some baby steps for what can she do to get her voice out there? And they have to be baby steps.

So for someone like Grace, I think I would start by coaching her to amplify other people. Now I wouldn’t normally say this, because normally I want women to amplify themselves, but I think for someone like Grace, if she has a hesitance speaking up and is afraid, if she amplifies what other people say, particularly women – and amplification is just the process of affirming what you’ve heard…

Tom: “Good idea.”

Lois: Yeah, “Good idea.” “Here’s why I agree with that.” “Here’s why I would support that.” “Can you tell me more?” “You know, let’s really explore this further on Tom’s behalf.” Right?

That is a great way to get your voice out there and to build alliances. Because that’s partly what she wants – that when she does speak up and give her own opinion, she wants to make sure that she’s got those alliances out there. So, I think I would start with a baby step like that.

Tom: That’s great.

So, let me ask, in addition to that, do you have catch phrases or ways to start a sentence that sound assertive, that someone like Grace can just adopt?

Lois: Absolutely. You know where you’ll find most of those is not in this book. But you may recall, in my audiobook, Nice Girls Don’t Speak Up and Stand Out…

Tom: Yeah…

Lois: …when I started writing that book, and I realized, ‘This book begs to be listened to, not read. And so I went back to the publisher, and I said, “Can we make this an audio book? I don’t want this to be a paperback book. People have to hear these messages.” So obviously, I would recommend that book for her.

Tom: Of course!

Lois: Yeah, because there’s so many tips in there. But I think I would start her with simple ones, like – and again, I wouldn’t coach everyone to do this, so I don’t want everyone to take this as, ‘Oh, we all have to do this,’ because it’s not the case – but in her case, it’d be something like, “Let me make sure I understood what everybody said, and then let me add how I see this.”

I think in that way, she doesn’t feel as if she’s being out there just to have her voice heard. Because sometimes women get coached, “Hey, look, it doesn’t matter! Just say what you have to say!” No. Some women like Grace… I’m picturing a timid woman – a smart, timid – I’m picturing actually a smart, timid, attractive woman, who has gotten by on all of that, and needs to develop a new brand for herself. Is that correct?

Tom: Yes. And one of the things she has said to me is, “I love scripts.”

Lois: I love scripts.

Tom: So those kind of phrases that I think she would do well with them. And they sound great to me. They sound right to me for her.

Lois: For her, exactly. So, to be able to say something in a meeting, like, “You know, before we go any further, excuse me, I would like to summarize what I heard and add something to it.”

Tom: Right.

Lois: “And so if I heard you correctly, Tom, this is what you’re saying. Did I get that right? Okay, then I would just like to add this piece from my perspective.”

And again, this is how she can start, because eventually you want her to get to the place that she’s able to say, “Tom, I heard what you said, and I think we need to add this to it.” Yeah, I would have her use “I” a lot more often.

Tom: Oh, that’s interesting.

Lois: It’s probably difficult for her.

Tom: I’m running my conversations with her, and I don’t hear that and I haven’t asked, so that’s a good one. I will put that on my radar.

Lois: So that’d be another part of the script that I’d give to her that she more often needs to start her phrases with “I.” You know, “I believe.” “I see.” “What I’ve noticed.” I think she needs to start using those “I’s” more often, to own it.

Tom: Oh, I like those. Those are great.

So let me ask one. I know you’ve talked about this, and I’m wondering whether your ideas about it have evolved.

So, let’s imagine Grace sitting in a meeting. She says something, has an idea. It doesn’t get a lot of traction. Seven minutes later, some guy speaks up with the same idea, and everybody goes, “Great idea. Robert!” For Grace, as a timid woman, what words would you give her?

Lois: Her script is going to be, “Robert, thank you so much for expanding on my idea. What it made me realize is I left a few pieces out. So let me just add to what you said, and then I think we’d have my full idea on the table.”

Tom: Ooh. So, listen, I think that would be great if she could do that, but knowing Grace as I do, I think she would be so paralyzed and fearful that she won’t have a new idea. And my question is, could she claim the original idea? And if so, what would that sound like?

Lois: Sure, okay, let’s do it this way then, saying, “No, Robert, I so appreciate you expanding on my idea. It sounds like you agree with it. You buy into it. I think with your expertise and my expertise combined, we can move this forward.”

Tom: Oh, nice. So, she also amplifies.

Lois: She amplifies. She thanks him, and she puts it into an action mode. But she doesn’t let him get away with stealing it.

Tom: Great. Oh, I love that. So that one, which I feel can happen to any woman…

Lois: Yes.

Tom: …is a nice pivot point for me to go to, client number two.

Lois: Okay.

Tom: So client number two is on the other end of the spectrum. To put it nicely, she has sharp elbows. A woman named Nicole. Super smart. Really high achiever. The company loves her. And they would really like her to stop pissing people off, because she’s a little abrasive.

One of the things that you talk about with women taking control is about being direct. So how would you coach Nicole around being able to be direct without over-correcting and people going, “She’s such a bitch”?

Lois’s answer about Nicole, plus her thoughts on the increasing difficulties for women in the workplace, and more ideas from Nice Girls Don’t Get the Corner Office, are in our unedited conversation. Hear it here.